Daily Kos

The last refuge of the war supporter

by kos

Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:27:51 AM PDT

From winger NY Post columnist John Podhoretz:
Democratic Party bottom-feeders -- like the odd and unpleasant people who inhabit the comments sections on Web sites like dailykos.com and democraticunderground.com -- have already long since started spewing their bile at our soldiers, sailors and Marines.
I would love to see examples of "bile spewed" at soldiers on this site that haven't been troll rated out of existence. And it's always rich to have asshole chickenhawks like Podhoretz attack the bona fides of a military veteran like me. Opposing the war and this administration's incompetent handling of it is somehow "spewing bile" at the troops.

Got it.

Fact is, the public's take on the war is souring, rats are jumping from the ship, Republicans with presidential aspirations in 2008 (like McCain and Hagel) are distancing themselves from the war, and prominent conservatives are joining the anti-war bandwagon, and the best the chickenhawks war boosters can do is invent smears directed at our troops.

Apparently, it's the last refuge of the discredited war supporter.

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Permalink | 188 comments

  •  "Odd and unpleasant people?" (4.00 / 5)

    Norm Podhoretz is one to talk about "odd and unpleasant."  I love the US Military, I don't want to see our troops DIE for no goddamn reason, unlike that asshole who sees them as PAWNS for some idiotic scheme!

    by teenagedallasdeaniac on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:18:27 AM PDT

    •  indeed (4.00 / 9)

      and why even dignify him with a remark?  i suppose nowadays we have to defend ourselves against smears like this, but isn't this just giving his bile a longer life?

      fuck John Podhoretz.  in fact, i hope he's reading this thread.

      john, you are a scum sucking peice of shit.  you are not fit to spit shine the boots of our troops. wingnuts like you - who refused to question the wisdom of the bush administration - are the reason our troops are dying at higher rates than they should be.  i dare you to come say to my face that i - or anyone in this community - don't support our troops.  i didn't want them to die in the first place, and now that they are there i want them properly armored and i want them to come home safely and as soon as possible.  and by god if i am going to sit here and watch YOUR bush administration slash veteran's benefits.  FUCK OFF.

      John Cornyn is an asshole with shoes. Support Rick Noriega!

      by anna on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:26:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My thoughts exactly (4.00 / 9)

        I sent this to him, it'll probably get deleted before he gets past the header.


        "Democratic Party bottom-feeders -- like the odd and unpleasant people who inhabit the comments sections on Web sites like dailykos.com and democraticunderground.com -- have already long since started spewing their bile at our soldiers, sailors and Marines."

        Mr. Podhoretz,

        Do you even read these websites or do you simply engage in ad hominem attacks based off of information from your buddies at the water cooler each day?
        First, Markos Moulitsas Zúniga (the webmaster and primary author at Dailykos.com) is an Army veteran and a survivor of the civil war in El Salvador, I would think he knows a little more about supporting troops than someone like you.
        Second, it's people like you, who think that all human life is expendable in the name of extreme right-wing ideology, who really don't give a damn about the troops. Your support of an administration that has led our men and women into the biggest death trap in a generation with false information, no discernable battle strategy and a criminal neglect for the well-being of both troops and civilians is the real enemy to democracy. I pray to God that clearer minds and morals than yours prevail during the upcoming years, because your columns are poison in the well of rational political discourse.
        Have a good day.

        Angry letters to 2-bit columnists, what a way to spend 5 minutes.

        by Antioch on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:39:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  hell yea. (none / 1)

        exactly.

        by b6 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:42:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  -sputter-! (4.00 / 5)

      Are these the same "Democratic Party bottom feeders" who are drawing attention to the administration's and Pentagon's miserable treatment of the military, from billing soldiers for food while in the hospital recovering from combat wounds to leaving them homeless vets upon return to the USA?

      If so, I'm glad to be a bottom feeder.

      Republicans can't run a country. All they can run is a smear campaign. ~ GMT

      Vice harms the doer ~ Socrates

      by kdub on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:42:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Odd and Unpleasant (none / 1)

      I thought that chickenshits name was spelled John Pudwhoretz. Silly me.

      "Curioser, and Curioser" I must say as we trip down this rancid rabbit hole; In the bile-filed bizarre world of "conservative thought" (sic) not only are we liberals responsible for the catastrophic failure in Iraq (because Clinton gutted the military, dontcha know?!) but by protesting Bushco blunders we're pouring putresence on our proudly serving patriotic soldiers.

      This has never happened here before </sarcasm>

      Normally, I'd like peyote to be involved when there's this much vomit around, but then again I'd like a skeptical (of power) and unbiased press, a fairly elected president and a country full of sane, informed, and compassionate democrats (small d).

      Oh well, I guess I'm still pre-occupied with pipedreams.

      Emancipate yourself from Mental Slavery, No one but ourselves can free our Minds.

      by TustonDAZ on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:02:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  John Podhoretz under discussion (none / 1)

      Norm Podhoretz is his father (couldn't believe it either). Referring to downthread, Norm Podhoretz has aged and turned over the editorship of Commentary to someone else, I think, as Kristol and Glazer did with The Public Interest. I find the articles in Commentary more worth reading than most of the wingnut press.

      -4.00, -5.33 Strange Bedfellows Money Bomb: August 8, 2008 Civil liberties is not a purity issue.

      by 4jkb4ia on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:39:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah (none / 1)

    That's the oldest trick in the book, the first one they used and it will be the last one: opposing the war = dishonoring the troops.  And even telling the truth about war, even if you're for it, is "smearing" our brave soldiers.

    It's getting awfully stale.

    Stayin' Alive

    by therealcervantes on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:19:00 AM PDT

    •  Luckily there's a quick way around (none / 0)

      Throw it back at them.

      "You're the one who helped send them to their deaths."

      by Antioch on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:41:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  For those who made it through (none / 0)

      the late sixties', early seventies' anti-war turmoil, it's even more stale. Among the few small differences in invective hurled are, "Get a haircut" and "Go back to Roosha, ya commie pinko fag", though the same mindset that didn't see the redundancy in "commie pinko" still exists, the mindset that still doesn't know what "redundancy" means. It's just a hell of a lot easier to remain obtuse than to see your country as a militarist tapeworm.

      The greatest blessing bestowed on a people is the absence of ignorance in public office. - Confucius

      by cavanaghjam on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:13:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  and (none / 0)

    And by the way, Podhoretz is extraordinarily odd and unpleasant.

    Stayin' Alive

    by therealcervantes on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:19:41 AM PDT

  •  A sign (4.00 / 13)

    It's a sign of how effective and important the site is becoming that the Bush cultists must make up scurrilous attacks against it. The neocons had the jump on us, but we're catching up. Keep up the good work Kos and Kossacks everywhere.

    Thrice is he armed who hath his quarrel just. Sherlock Holmes.

    by Carnacki on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:20:54 AM PDT

    •  The site is increasingly effective. (none / 1)

      Let's see:

      Tax attorney
      Physician's wife
      Mother of two boys
      Small business owner
      Soccer mom
      Active in PTA and kids' classrooms
      Supervises homework and piano practice daily
      Treasurer for a local charity
      Fiscal conservative
      Civil libertarian
      Possessed of two friends currently serving in Iraq
      Faithful wife
      Dutiful daughter and granddaughter
      Honest business partner
      Terrific cook
      dKos userid:1015 (from my home computer)
      And damned good looking to boot.

      If that's odd and unpleasant, I'm o.k. with it.

      Oh, and by the way, John, I give great..........dinner parties.

      by payingattentionandappalled on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 12:49:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I never understand that (4.00 / 8)

    'Wingers seem to have a obsession with attacking veterans who don't back up their bullshit war schemes. See "Kerry, John."

    It gets even crazier in the blogworld. Reynolds, Charles "LGF" Johnson, Hugh Hewitt, the penis envy crowd at Powerline - not a vet among them, yet they were OBSESSED with Kerry's Vietnam service and Kos's isolated comment about mercenaries. Projection? Feelings of inadequacy? Who knows?

    by daveweigel on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:20:58 AM PDT

  •  As long as dKos website is the newspaper, (none / 1)

    This is a public relations victory!

    by stayingpositive on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:21:18 AM PDT

  •  Outrage (none / 0)

    But I'm consoled in my knowledge that the guy is a freak and pretty much viewed with disgust by people who are actually in his own social circle.

    "Truck Stop Women," a New Film By Phil Gramm and John McCain.

    by bink on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:21:26 AM PDT

  •  I'm a proud bottom-feeder (none / 0)

    but you won't hear me attacking our troops.

    The NY Post on the other hand, I will gladly attack them.

    Bush gave our troops their orders, and Bush is the one who is causing their suffering.

    I want our troops to succeed, but fear they will not.

    And I haven't seen much troop bashing here, and what little of it I have seen has either been tempered by blaming Bush, or quickly shot down.

    Booman Tribune

    by BooMan23 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:22:05 AM PDT

  •  Military Support and the War (4.00 / 5)

    I read this column yesterday, and I was disgusted by the first few paragraphs, which seemed to me an obvious attempt to overstate the level of military support for the war. Podhoretz kept using words like "passionate" and "astounding" to describe the military's support of the war. Yet the support numbers 60%. That doesn't seem "astounding" to me.

    Can anyone provide any context for this number? Is it indeed astounding?

    by Wendela on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:22:11 AM PDT

    •  military support for the war (4.00 / 4)

      the other day Fox news was harping on some survey produced at military times that came up with that 60% figure. I checked the military times site and interesting 56% of those surveyed had not been deployed in Iraq.

      Rome wasn't burnt in a day.

      by Miss Devore on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:30:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  i fucking agree (none / 1)

      even with a cherry-picked sample, 40% of soldiers do not support their commander-in-chief? wow!

      fun with numbers, you vile likud piece of shit podhoretz.

      by heterodoxy on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:35:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I knew this would come up (4.00 / 6)

      I did a diary on this survey a few days ago, warning that wingnuts would use it to justify supporting the war.  The Military Times had the following caveats about those surveyed.  Subscribers to the four papers tend to be:
      *older
      *higher in rank
      *more career-oriented than the military as a whole

      In other words, not those most likely to be sent on patrols in an unarmored vehicle to flush out IED's.  The survey is not to be trusted and factors that could skew the results will not be reported by wingnut media.

      Other results of the survey:
      *75 percent oppose drafting men into the military.
      *60 percent blame Congress for the shortage of body armor in the combat zone.
      *Only 12 percent think civilian Pentagon policy-makers should be held accountable for abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

      ;]

      by lapin on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:38:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I like that (none / 1)

    "Chickenhawk Poderhetz."

    Fuck him and his neo-con, Zionist ass.  

    The fact that he sees stuff where it doesn't exist--that is, "anti-troop" sentiment on Kos--is just a testament to me of how out of touch with reality (i.e., INSANE) and dangerous these people are.

    Kos, I think it would be cool if you got your readers and the other readers on the bloggosphere to get together and make this CHICKENHAWK's life miserable by way of e-mail and contacting his editor.

    By the way, more than one person I know has noticed that the neo-cons and wingnuts in the media seem to be setting out on a campaign now to DEMONIZE the blogosphere and the progressive sites on the Internet.  

    It is as is these people KNOW that the Internet has become a focal point of the resistance, and they are now going to do everything they can to demonize it in the public mind and get some support for going after it.

    "What is wrong with you?"--Jon Stewart to Tucker Carlson on "Crossfire."

    by PhillipG on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:22:21 AM PDT

  •  Please... (none / 0)

    Spare me the demented ramblings of a back seat general like Podhoretz.

    I'm a veteran too, and if anything, people here are much more supportive of the troops than Podhoretz and his Freeper bretheren.  They see war without end (fought by someone else's children).  We want an alternative.

    veritas vos liberabit

    by WWGray on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:22:48 AM PDT

    •  Ah, but (none / 0)

      But what have YOU done for the troops? have YOU called the French the "axis of weasels"? Have YOU called one of our soldiers a "Marlboro Man"?

      God I hate the Post.

      by daveweigel on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:25:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No (4.00 / 2)

        And the one thing I hate most about this war is the implict notion that in this war, all the pain (death, dismemberment, brain damage, etc)is going to be borne by the least among us while the upper class robber barons reap the rewards (no bid contracts, etc.).

         

        veritas vos liberabit

        by WWGray on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:38:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (none / 0)

      Nutcases like Podhoretz will support war at all possible costs, unless of course, they actually have to make any sacrifices of their own to support the war effort.

      by pine on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:31:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Many vets here, of course (3.80 / 5)

      Like you and Kos, I served too. I joined up when Bush pere began moving troops to the Gulf for Desert Shield. I see many postings by vets here, and never have I seen one that denigrated our troops.  

      When Podhoretz and his ilk accuse someone of badmouthing the troops, they mean criticized Bush and the administration. They wholly disregard the troops as being real people with real lives. A shield to hide behind is all the troops are for those people.

      "She was very young,he thought,...she did not understand that to push an inconvenient person over a cliff solves nothing." -1984

      by aggressiveprogressive on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:55:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Proud to be (4.00 / 2)

    a member of the odd and unpleasant based community.

    If you can't support the veterans you have, don't make any new ones.

    by slackjawedlackey on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:23:51 AM PDT

  •  the post is a nazi rag (none / 0)

    please try to ignore it.

    by heterodoxy on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:27:00 AM PDT

  •  Funny, I always found that... (none / 0)

    Republicans Hate Soldiers

    Have A Nice, Hot Cup O Joe!

    by Joeve on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:27:04 AM PDT

  •  support our troops? (4.00 / 13)

    Yeah, I want to support our troops. I want to support our troops so much I think they should have armor. I think every humvee should have a radio jammer. I think that if we're going to occupy a country in the middle-east that there should be twice as many troops. I think we should end the tax on widow benefits. I think hospitalized soldiers should be able to call their families. I think we should link widow-benefits to the amount we pay congress -- every time the chickenhawks give themselves a raise they should also be giving a raise to those how have sacrificed the most. Yeah, I support the troops. I support the troops so much I think we should bring them home.

    Bob Brigham Blog

    by blogswarm on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:27:54 AM PDT

    •  can someone *please* tell me (none / 0)

      what all that $$$ for the war is being spent on?  It's not spent on radio jammers, body armor, humvee armor, buildings instead of tents, medical benefits, etc.  Really -- where is it all going? Is there anywhere online there's an accounting of what we've spent and where?

      Please don't tell it's all gone straight to Hell(iburton).

      On Media Engagement

      by magpie02141 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:07:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You know (none / 1)

        I was wondering about that exact thing. Am I dreaming or did I read sometime last year that we were constructing 7(?) superfortresses in Iraq? I did a brief google trying to find where I read that. My guess is, find the forts, find the money.

        Now about the funds set aside for reconstruction? Fallujah is entirely rubble. Uh, any sign of that money?

        utahgirl

        "I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds

        by nio on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:23:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  At one point (none / 0)

          Earlier in the war, I figured that the appropriation came out to $666,666 for every soldier and piece of materiel over there.  That waxes up a lot of cannons.

          Unfortunately, Humvees weren't designed for armor, and welding in new plates will make them top-heavy, which is not good for crawling along riverbanks or other steep places.  What the users are saying is "I want a fucking tank protecting me", which isn't going to happen.  The tension of just driving along a road must be enormous - you need an IED spotter at all times.  And driving at night?  I don't think so.

          pith

          by moltar on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:31:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  ask Cheney.n/t (none / 0)

          "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana

          by Street Kid on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 03:56:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Answered my own question: 4 Permanent Bases (none / 0)

          Permanent Iraq bases

          This article proposes that the permanent bases are one reason the US has not gone to the UN. I don't want to see what happens when the chickens come home to roost on this one.

          utahgirl

          "I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds

          by nio on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:21:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  all wingnut, all the time (3.75 / 4)

    Sadly, there will always be a vocal minority of wingnuts who support the war at all possible costs and feel compelled to attack those who oppose it. The fact that he mentioned DailyKos and DemocraticUnderground by name shows that the pressure must really be getting to them.

    By the way, I believe Podhoretz was the same columnist who wrote that he hoped the late Palestinian-American intellectual Edward Said was burning in the fires of hell.

    by pine on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:28:18 AM PDT

  •  I can't tell you how embarrassed I am (none / 0)

    That the New York Post is based out of my city.

    If you like this comment, please visit It Affects You -- Ross

    by up2date on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:28:22 AM PDT

    •  no apology needed (none / 0)

      NYC is just fine. speaking bluntly, NYC has a large enough population of jewish persons that it contains a fair number of vile likud types. and they happen to own the editorial page of the ny post and the ny daily news. these likud claim to be democrats, because no spiritual jew will associate with a republican, but they are vile ultra-right-wing scum.

      hey, haven't you heard this before:

      "hi, my name is ed koch, and i'm a demcorat, but i wanted to tell you why i am endorsing (e.g., david duke for congress)"

      by heterodoxy on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:55:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  tabloids (none / 0)

      Unfortunately, NY does not have many newspapers that  are not tabloids and are nothing but gossip mongers. The Times is the closest thing to being an intelligent newspaper. The rest is garbage.

      Many years ago when the Post and the Daily News were having financial problems they must have figured out  that the National Enquirer's method of journalism is what sells.

      Vote with your Wallet. Buyblue.org

      by shark on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 10:32:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Everybody knows (none / 0)

    Everybody knows the Post is more fit for the lining of a feline's litter box, or extra kindling for a December fire, than an actual read.
    Take a look at the commuter trains after the morning rush hour.
    I gather you'll find a few mud splattered copies of Podhoretz's lying on the floor :)

    You go to war with the defense secretary you have, not the defense secretary you might want or wish to have.

    by Bill Blanc on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:29:14 AM PDT

    •  fresh (none / 0)

      i bought one one time, when i forgot my umbrella and it was either $3 for an umbrella or the most get-what-you-pay-for $0.25 for a post (unfolded to cover my head). in a way it's a shame new jersey transit has such a nice bathroom at penn station, or we could see lots of folks wiping their ass with podhoretz' mug.

      by heterodoxy on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:34:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I emailed him (none / 1)

    and asked for some examples of people on DK insulting our troops--and pointed out that there are many here who are veterans or who have family members serving. Dollars to donuts he doesn't respond.

    by julie37 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:30:07 AM PDT

    •  Of course not. (none / 0)

      He's a flack, a shill, a marionette on corporate strings, Ann Coulter with smaller testicles.

      People in NY read the Post for the Sports section.

      The greatest blessing bestowed on a people is the absence of ignorance in public office. - Confucius

      by cavanaghjam on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:20:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I sent him an email as well... (none / 0)

      Explained to him that as a regular reader of DailyKos, I've rarely if ever seen instances of people degrading or criticizing the troops in any way. And the few that I have seen were met with resistance and criticism by the rest of this community - if anything, this is a pro-troop site. I asked that he not conflate criticism of the administration and the Pentagon leadership with criticism of the men and women actually fighting in Iraq. I also asked for him to send me examples of anti-troop comments made by these so-called "bottom feeders". I was civil and for the most part, non-confrontational.

      Much to my surprise, Mr. Podhoretz actually replied. And I must thank him for enlightening me and showing me the way to the truth. Here's the response I got:

      "Um-boy, are you wrong."

      Guess he showed me.

      by For Real on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 06:56:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Podhoretz bio (4.00 / 5)

    John Podhoretz is a FOX News Channel contributor, a twice-weekly columnist for the New York Post, a weekly columnist for National Review Online, a contributing editor to the Weekly Standard magazine and a consulting editor at ReganBooks.

    He was co-founder and deputy editor of the Weekly Standard from 1995-1997 before joining the New York Post as its editorial page editor. Later, he also served as the paper's arts and features editor before becoming a full-time columnist.

    Podhoretz has worked at Time, The Washington Times, Insight and U.S. News & World Report.

    He served as speechwriter to President Ronald Reagan in 1988 and as special assistant to Drug Czar William Bennett. He was co-founder as well of the White House Writers Group, a corporate speechwriting and public-relations firm in Washington, D.C.

    His book, Hell of a Ride: Backstage at the White House Follies 1989-1993, is published by Simon & Schuster.

    Podhoretz lives in Brooklyn Heights, New York.

    *Reagan
    *Bennett
    *National Review
    *Weekly Standard
    *Moonie Times
    *Insight magazine (another Moonie publication)
    *Fox News

    All the signs of a societal parasite, contributing nothing but ill-will to humanity.  What positive contribution to humanity has this person made?

    ;]

    by lapin on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:30:20 AM PDT

    •  "Name it. We got it." (none / 0)

      That would be my dear borough's motto. Never did it occur to me that "it" includes fascist troglodytes like Podhoretz. What the hell is he doing in the People's Republic of Brooklyn, anyway? Wouldn't he be more comfortable in Westchester, or at least the more posh parts of Staten Island? Ugh.

      "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

      by Septic Tank on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:00:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Brooklyn is a large Jewish center (none / 0)

        In Haaretz there was an article on Borough Park where almost everyone came out to vote for Bush. Brooklyn Heights is a posh part of Brooklyn.

        -4.00, -5.33 Strange Bedfellows Money Bomb: August 8, 2008 Civil liberties is not a purity issue.

        by 4jkb4ia on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:15:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Jewish GOP voters are a rarity (none / 0)

          If I recall correctly, Bush really didn't improve on his share of the Jewish vote from 2000. I know Jewish wingers like Podhoretz support him, particularly given his staunch support of Sharon and his "Judeo-Christian world versus the Islamofascists" storyline, but I was under the impression that they were a tiny minority of even the Conservative/Orthodox communities. Am I wrong?

          "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

          by Septic Tank on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 12:35:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  actually, in my estimation, (none / 0)

            bush definitely did a bit better wit jewish voters. he's very popular with the murdering likudniks who back sharon. the exit polls don't tell the whole story. some jews definitely lied on them. i live in one of america's most democatic and most jewish towns, and i estimate bush took 30% of the jewish vote here. back before some jews became nazis, bus would have taken 10% of that vote.

            by heterodoxy on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 05:56:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Orthodox community is heavily Republican (none / 0)

            They were Republican even in 1996 with the not-very-comprehensive exit poll I analyzed for American Jewish Congress. Israel is an issue that trumps most others. Bush got 30% of the national vote, a 4% increase. Someone posted on Eric Alterman's blog saying, "I may be the only observant Jew who voted for Kerry". So observant Democrats perceive a lot of observant Republicans around them.
            I can't comment on whether the Jews in Borough Park are Yankee fans or not :)  A funny scene in Tova Mirvis's "The Outside World" showed Orthodox Jews at the kosher hotdog stand at Yankee Stadium and as soon as ten guys showed up, another Mincha(afternoon prayer) got going. Philip Roth also switched his allegiance to the Yankees! Sacrilege!

            -4.00, -5.33 Strange Bedfellows Money Bomb: August 8, 2008 Civil liberties is not a purity issue.

            by 4jkb4ia on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 08:51:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  yankees (none / 0)

          they're not really in Brooklyn. THey're probably all Yankee fans.  

          by jackinthebox4 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 06:47:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Have you ever noticed... (none / 1)

      that many of those most critical of the left have gotten very, very rich by being so?  Meanwhile, most of the people supporting the left are people of modest means who speak out because they believe what they are saying.  I have a theory:  Very few right wing people actually believe the crap they spew about the right.  I think that to most of them, politics is just a fancy version of WWF - they speak their lines on cue and get people all riled up and get paid a lot of money for doing it.  The problem is, that unlike WWF, which is pretty much all in fun, in their world people are dying as a result of what these people say and do.  They don't care, as long as they get paid.  The true suckers are the people who listen to what the right wingers say and believe that they are speaking for them.  And, of course, the people who are dying and being maimed and losing family members.  

      by dianem on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 11:27:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't want our soldiers to die needlessly (4.00 / 3)

    Does that make me a "hater"? "Unpatriotic"? I pray for the safety of our military daily. I pray for their families, because I am a former military dependant.

    I'd rather see us crushing Al Qaeda world-wide, hunting Osama. Any US death in that cause is a noble one.

    But Iraq is fast-becoming a lost cause. And to die for a lost cause is unacceptable.

    We learned that lesson in Vietnam.

    And what was the net result of losing Vietnam? Communism didn't spread like a domino line, as the Hawks suggested.

    Neither will radicalized Islam spread when we pull out of Iraq.

    "Don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34

    by Jonathan4Dean on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:31:26 AM PDT

    •  Jonathan4Dean (none / 0)

      You nailed exactly how I feel. I want Al-Quaeda hunted down and destroyed no matter the cost. Iraq is so far removed from the hunt for those that attacked us on Sept. 11th, that I can't help but get even angrier with our losses there. If we had these losses going after OBL and those responsible for attacking our country, I'd feel sad for the families, but would think it worth the price. I attempted to join the military after Sept. 11th. I was a few months too old for the cut off age.

      What's the excuse of the chickenhawks supporting this Iraq excursion at the Bush cult blogs like Free Republic and LGF for not serving?

      Thrice is he armed who hath his quarrel just. Sherlock Holmes.

      by Carnacki on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 02:44:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The reason GOPers love war (none / 1)

        I can point the reason why Republicans love war, even unnecessary war.

        Republicans feel both jingoistic (nationalistic) and helpless in the world. They feel like waves of minorities, liberals, poor whites and Terrorist Muslims are invading their living rooms. They feel surrounded. They personally felt wounded and helpless after 9/11.

        Whenever we can declare war on another country, and start killing "the enemy", regardless of who "the enemy" happens to be, they feel better. They can assert how much better the United States is, compared to other countries.

        What can Democrats do?

        a.) fight a more aggressive war against our real enemies.

        b.) call Iraq the fraud war that it is.

        c.) paint Republicans as unbalanced, irrational, and endangering America

        Chickenhawks, both Republican and Democrat, have played into that irrational thinking for at least 150 years.

        "Don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34

        by Jonathan4Dean on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 08:12:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  go after him (none / 1)

    jam post lines with complaints;

    An editorial writer who casually makes scurrilous statements should not keep his job.

    by checkers on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:33:20 AM PDT

  •  Unfortunately (none / 0)

    in the right wingnut sphere, an accusation is the same a stating a fact.  Their "reality" must not be blurred over by the facts.  Additionally, even moderates will believe this statement just because it is there.

    I am a proud supporter of our troops, including my son who will shortly be there.  And it is precisely because I support our troops that I voted for Kerry.

    Yes, I have one of those magnets that is frequently derided on this site, but I also have my Kerry sticker on my car.  

    Bush, so incompetent, he can't even do the wrong things right.

    by JAPA21 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:33:40 AM PDT

  •  Tallying (none / 0)

    "If they really want to fight a culture war rather than this just war to advance democracy and retard Islamofascism, we're more than ready for them."- Podheretz's summation

    But has he considered that:

    Islamic           Christian
    -------     x     ---------  = Fascism
    Fascism           Fascism

    Booman Tribune

    by BooMan23 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:34:12 AM PDT

  •  If being odd & unpleasant is wrong... (3.50 / 2)

    ...I don't want to be right.

    In this country, considering the current climate and mindset of at least a goodly portion of the electorate, normal is the last thing I want to be.

    Maybe we could come up with a t-shirt that is set up like the following:

    FRONT

    Daily Kos

    BACK

    Proudly odd and unpleasant

    Need more birty? Visit birty.us

    by birty74 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:35:15 AM PDT

  •  Hypocrites! (4.00 / 4)

    Surely you don't mean to impugn the purity of love for the motherland of the neo-cons!!  Oh, wait, you probably do.  Just because they're more interested in portraying themselves as the only true patriots left among a sea of fifth columnists and potential traitors than in actually doing anything to protect the safety of the troops engaged in Iraquagmire, or of Americans at home, doesn't mean that they should be required to abandon their life-long love of hypocrisy.

    This is a mentality that has built itself up into something approaching a cult of personality.  Any criticism of the policies of the administration and its supporters automatically is transformed by them into hatred for our nation and its ideals.  They have personalized things to a degree where they now feel entitled to believe that they are the embodiment of the people.  This is usually only seen in totalitarian or autocratic nations.  Their motto must surely be "L'etat c'est nous."

    Can you smell the Constitution burning?

    by The Maven on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:35:20 AM PDT

  •  Welcome Back (nt) (none / 0)

    -6.13/-6.31

    by count on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:36:42 AM PDT

  •  I suggest (4.00 / 2)

    I suggest that any soldiers and relatives of soldiers who participate on this site write that odd and unpleasant newspaper the NY Post and tell them what you feel about the quoted comment.

    Read the PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT Newsletter

    by mole333 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:39:06 AM PDT

  •  kos: demand an op-ed (4.00 / 16)

    seems only fair.  if they mention your site by name i think they should offer you the chance to write a response in the post's editorial pages.  and if they haven't offered, suggest that they offer it.

    US Citizen Overseas? REGISTER TO VOTE ALREADY!

    jabberhawkie.com

    by kevin lyda on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:40:50 AM PDT

  •  Kos, you need - (3.50 / 2)

    your own tv show already.
    Granted, I may be odd and unpleasant, but unlike Podhoretz I am not a lying sack of shit.

    by b6 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:41:21 AM PDT

    •  not sure (none / 1)

      communicating on-air is a different plane.  it takes years and years to develop a tv personality.  Then again, people like Ron Reagan are rare naturals who can both think and project.
      Look at all the intellectuals on PBS that are rarely if ever even mentioned here, because their talents are in thinking and writing.  
      Showbiz requires a different talent, energy and magnetism.

      by checkers on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:53:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  a marine (none / 0)

    i am very close to, who will be going to iraq in a few months, shared his frustration with the hollow "support our troops" sloganry, meanwhile getting paid pretty poorly for 80 hour weeks he's been pulling just in training and that his last leg of training will be shortened (and put him in more danger) just to get him over there faster. i am hoping to get his permission to go into more detail on a diary coming soon, for the moment i don't want to get to detailed w/out his ok.

    by joewlarson on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:42:22 AM PDT

  •  Yea! I'm a bottom feeder! (none / 0)

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Woohoo! Love thy neighbour and all that!

    Seriously now... they have to spew hate at us, otherwise they might just have to take a moment to search deep inside their souls and realize how wanting they really are.

    The ultimate respect for our soldiers is to want to keep them out of harms way unless absolutely necessary.

    visit me @ Jaded Reality

    by spiderleaf on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:46:14 AM PDT

  •  Bile Spewing? (none / 1)

    Is it spewing bile to say that I didn't, and still don't, want our troops to die in an unnecessary war?  Is it spewing bile to want those who would jeopardize our troops' safety by committing the same atrocities we accused Saddam of to face justice and to take their commuppance?  Is it spewing bile to wonder how the fuck we've come to things where sending troops off to war underarmored and underdefended is patriotic, while wondering WHY our troops are underarmored, underdefended, and not allowed to be critical without someone being blamed for 'planting questions'?

    FUCK THAT.  We're not the ones claiming that AP is doing an inside job for the Iraqis for posting pictures of a killing on a street where several firefights had already happened.  We're not the  ones pushing toward calling those we don't agree with outright traitors.  We're not the ones that can't seem to get the idea that maybe, just maybe, this war was FLAWED FROM THE FUCKING START.

    So screw you, Podhoretz.  My bile is nothing compared to you and those that would keep company with Murdoch, Coulter, Limbaugh, and the other radical right-wing proto-facists.

    If you don't stand for something, Then you'll fall for anything.

    by Kryptik on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:46:40 AM PDT

  •  Rather than bottom feeder (none / 0)

    I prefer "catfish".

    Booman Tribune

    by BooMan23 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:47:14 AM PDT

  •  Here's some Bile: (none / 0)

    Bring them home!  Stop this illegal war on the Iraqi people!

    "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

    by Gearhead on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:47:30 AM PDT

  •  Stories of the wounded (4.00 / 2)

    More and more stories are being presented by the corporate media sources about the true cost of the Iraq War. A couple nights ago I saw a lengthy piece on the local TV news about a Minnesota soldier who's leg was shattered by a bullet. On Minnesota Public Radio today there was a long piece about a different wounded soldier and how his life has been permanently changed. The story also included mention of the advancement of battlefield medical treatment. This particular Minnesota soldier would most likely not have survived in a previous war.

    The part of the MPR story that stuck with me is that in the past, the intensity of a war was measured by the number of dead. Now the number of dead measure the abilities of the surgeons on the battlefield. As the wounded return home, ordinary America will be forced to live with what is really happening. You can't bury the wounded and keep them only as memories.

    Are you shaking or biting the invisible hand?

    by puppethead on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:49:46 AM PDT

  •  Giuliani (4.00 / 3)

    Is he talking about Giuliani blaming the troops for the missing explosives?  Does Giuliani post here?

    Democracy for America

    by 511PF on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:50:41 AM PDT

  •  Love notes to Podhoretz (4.00 / 2)

    After a radio broadcast debate between Podhoretz & Amy Goodman before the invasion I felt compelled to drop him a  respectful email note regarding the flecks of steaming sputum his performance left on my transistors. I stressed the importance of civil dialogue on the subject of the invasion & the value of public exposure to multiple sides of the issue. Surprisingly, he replied! His biliousness (as in bile) was so virulent I had to fumigate my computer & take a hot  bath after reading it. I responded with yet another respectful -- and pointed -- note. He didn't make another reply, but the smell from the first one lingered for days.
    Honestly, the man is poison to thoughtful, reasoned discourse. His spew is quite suitable for a puppy-training tool like the Post.
    Fegh.

    -9.38, -7.95

    by wilderness wench on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:52:09 AM PDT

  •  A vital service (none / 1)

    When the cognitive dissonance gets too loud for the typical wingnut, when their brilliant designs collapse all around them and there's just no escaping reality any longer, the reaction is to transfer blame onto liberals. We serve as their personal punching bags, a kind or emotional relief valve for their fragile egos. If it weren't for liberals these lost soles would be firing weapons from clock towers. Yet another vital service we provide America.

    by Rp on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:54:25 AM PDT

  •  Legally actionable? (none / 0)

    Markos, I'm not a lawyer, but may I suggest looking into whether or not Podhoretz's slander against this site is legally actionable? Probably wouldn't be worth it, but there must be some means of checking unfounded McCarthyite crap like that, right? It would certainly be more effective than a letter to the editor.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

    by Septic Tank on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:55:23 AM PDT

    •  It's not (none / 0)

      You can't libel groups.

      I can say the Club for Growth are a bunch of child molestors, and they couldn't do anything about it.

      In the same way, a winger can say we are all a bunch of child molestors, and there's nothing we could do about it.

      by kos on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:58:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But I know first hand (none / 1)

        that the editorial staff at the New York Post is rife with pederasts.

        Can I publish that here?

        Booman Tribune

        by BooMan23 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 10:02:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But hasn't he libeled you personally? (none / 0)

        As the proprietor of this eponymous site? You're right, I'm sure, but the law is curiously malleable thing. According to the Columbia Encyclopedia:

        The plaintiff is required to prove the colloquium (circumstances of utterance showing that the statement was directed against him or her specifically) and, when necessary, the innuendo (the factors making an apparently innocent statement defamatory). Generally, truth is an absolute defense in a suit for defamation. A false defamatory statement may be privileged if the actor was a legislator, executive officer, or speaking in a court proceeding. The requirement of colloquium makes unactionable defamation of a large group, e.g., a racial or professional group.

        In any case, the threat of a lawsuit is often enough to make a news org run a grovelling correction, though News Corp.'s legal department has proven its incompetence in the past.  

        "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

        by Septic Tank on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 12:50:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  He may actually be a member and reading this diary (none / 0)

    Hey Podhoretz, if you're lurking out there, please give us an example of the bile-spewing against our soldiers you've accused us Kossacks of doing.

    If the administration had listened to those who were against the war from the beginning, those 1,300+ troops would be celebrating the new year with their families. Their deaths are on your head and everyone else who supported this war.

    YOU and your fellow fake journalists are the extensions of the president and party we detest -- a bunch of warmongering, bloodthirsty and stupid imperialists.

    Fox news, by the way, sucks which explains why you're on their payroll.

    Impeach!!!

    by Rome890 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:55:31 AM PDT

  •  rudy (4.00 / 4)

    Let's not forget this "bottom-feeder":

    From the October 28 edition of NBC's Today:

        GIULIANI: The president was cautious. The president was prudent. The president did what a commander in chief should do. And no matter how much you try to blame it on the president, the actual responsibility for it really would be for the troops that were there. Did they search carefully enough? Didn't they search carefully enough?

    And as for Junior Podhoretz, I seem to recall, amid all the Reagan funeralia, some dignified backbiting among all the old ex-Reagan speechwriters, including Peggy Noonan, who agreed that Podhoretz was a useless hack. And if Noonan calls you hack, well, that's gotta sting...

    by WendellGee on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:58:03 AM PDT

  •  nice welcome back eh kos? (none / 1)

    The bilious John Podhoretz is a mercenary.

    ~ have a powerful day ~

    by moeman on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:59:08 AM PDT

  •  I used to get the Daily News for free... (none / 1)

    ....then after reading a few Podhoretz columns, I realized I was still being overcharged!  The man is a total Bush apologist.

    His comments about this community are beyond the pale--but not unexpected.  At least we can surmise he is starting to run scared on the Iraq war, after supporting it for so long.  

    Andy

    The Alton Weekly Inquirer! News roundup with snark returns on September 5th!

    by AAbshier on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 08:59:19 AM PDT

  •  We're not all completely anti-war (4.00 / 2)

    I was opposed to the Iraq war because I believed that Iraq did have WMD and would WMD us if we attacked Baghdad.

    To me, whatever the reasons for and against starting the war, the big question is, "How do we recover from the Bush administration's negligent planning and execution of this war to do as much as possible to protect the interests of ordinary Iraqis?" In other words, "Yes, we've lost this war, but is there any way to keep losing the war from meaning massive killings of ordinary Iraqis who just wanted to get Hussein out of power?"

    If I'd known that Baghdad didn't have WMD, I might possibly have supported attacking him (after cleaning up the mess in Darfur) just to get him out of power. I think Hussein really was terrible.

    I know someone who went there alone, without being tied to the military or the "contractors," and that guy came away believing that ordinary Iraqis did hate Hussein before the war. This person also came away believing that the more fanatical foreign insurgents really are just as much the enemies of the ordinary Iraqis as they are of the U.S. This person saw many examples of Americans being jerks but also saw examples of U.S. forces doing everything in their power to limit civilian casualties.

    But we have too few troops over there. The troops who are there are poorly supplied and poorly armored. In part because the troops have been so poorly supplied, poorly protected and poorly led, they've ended up doing everything possible to turn ordinary Iraqis against us. Maybe if the elections go OK the new Iraqi government could restore order by asking the UN to come in to help out. Even if the UN force included a lot of American troops. But I don't think there's any way at all that the United States can win flying the U.S. flag without using WMD.

    So, it's fine that Podhoretz originally supported the war and is mad at those of us who opposed it. But if he harps on that, then he's just trying to distract us from a level of incompetence in civilian military leadership that borders on treason.

    Bush got the war he wanted. He event got Hillary to vote for his war. So, Podhoretz, why did your guys do such a rotten of planning this war and rounding up support from allies? If they knew they were stuck with inadequate forces, why didn't they redefine the mission a long time ago to something that our limited forces could accomplish?

    by sclminc on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:01:40 AM PDT

  •  My letter to John Podhoretz (3.87 / 8)

    I am one of the "Democratic Party bottom-feeders" who "inhabits"
    dailykos.com to whom you refer.

    It's interesting that you would characterize me as one who would
    "spew[...] bile at our soldiers, sailors and Marines."

    Here in Los Angeles I helped coordinate two events where we sent care
    packages to the troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.  We are a
    group of Howard Dean supporters, about as anti-war as you can get, yet
    we all rallied to support the troops who were put in harm's way because
    of lies and fabrications by George Bush.  We put together over 500
    packages with donated items and labor, and raised over $4000 to pay for
    the postage to send them.  Even my Republican friends are impressed.

    You can oppose the military effort without opposing the men and women of
    our military.  Yet it is the Bush administration who has opposed them at
    every turn: lack of armor, cutting of hazard pay, making them pay for
    their return flights home, making them pay for their food while in the
    hospital.  It was only because those of us who opposed the war spoke up
    to support the troops that the Bush administration corrected these
    injustices.

    I speak up because I respect our troops and I want them to come home
    soon, alive and in one piece.

    by runchadrun on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:02:54 AM PDT

  •  John Podhoretz? (none / 0)

    Are you sure it isn't John PudHurtz? I was just thinking his name should match the crap he writes.

    The sleep of reason produces monsters.

    by Alumbrados on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:02:58 AM PDT

  •  On the dkos front page (none / 0)

    the following appeared on December 20:

    It is sometimes said that it is fashionable here at dkos not to empathize with our soldiers. This is false. Rather it is because we so fully appreciate the sacrifice these men and women make for us that we are so torn up about this disastrous Iraq Debacle.

    Perpetual War: A U.S. Soldier's Life

    Everybody dies alone.

    by Armando on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:04:09 AM PDT

  •  This is an old ruse (none / 1)

    When the public begins to understand the war is not going well and cannot be "won" they lose support and begin asking questions about why their kids are being sent off to die.

    Accusing people of "spewing bile at soldiers" is a way to shut down this debate. Americans of all stripes have been solidly behind our young men and women since the start of this mess.

    Mr. Podhoretz, our bile is being spewed at the leaders who started this insane and unwinnable war in the first place. Not the kids who are fighting for their lives over there.

    If I met you on the street sir, I would personally kick your ass for this horrible distortion you armchair hawk.

    Until you have a relative whose ass is on the line for Bush's insanity, STFU!

    "Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." - Oscar Wilde

    by greendem on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:04:21 AM PDT

  •  we will be blamed (none / 0)

    do you think neo-cons will admit they were wrong when the quagmire we are in in Iraq becomes undeniable?  No, they will blame... wait for it... liberals!  Pod just got that memo a little early.  

    BTW, read David Brock's book Blinded by the Right for some interesting insights on John "Tiffany Midgeson" Podhoretz.

    I am aware of all internet traditions

    by mcfly on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:08:05 AM PDT

  •  I for one am sick and tired of the troops (none / 0)

    I'm sick and tired of the troops not getting the supplies and armor they need

    I'm sick and tired of the troops not having enough support in the beginning

    and I'm sick and tired of the troops being stop lossed because we're overextended

    Give till it hurts. They already did.

    by slapshot57 on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:09:13 AM PDT

  •  I revel in my "Odd Unpleasentness" (none / 0)

    It must be BO...
    maybe its that garlic heavy pasta sauce from last night...
    No, I got it:  It's having a brain and being able to use it to see that Bush's policies are stupid and counterproductive!

    "Any single man must judge for himself whether circumstances warrant obedience or resistance to the commands of the civil magistrate" John Locke

    by TheGryphon on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 09:11:20 AM PDT

  •  And should one characterize freepers... (none / 1)

    ... as "...bloodthirsty ba